Million Dollar Journey

Hey CAD$: Nope, no cap on price. Just a flat fee of $4.95 for 495 stocks and $0.01/share after that. You can switch between their 4.95 and 9.95 plan anytime you want. With the 9.95 plan, you get unlimited shares. So, when the account grows larger, and we start trading in higher share volumes (>1000 shares /trade), we’ll switch to the 9.95 option.

John: Thanks for the info. As far as I know, TD Waterhouse is the only brokerage that allows for wash trades, do you know of any others? Currency exchange fees is something I’m going to have to look into.

Dividend Guy: what’s your experience so far with Canadian Shareowners Association? Which services do you use?

I was told by questrade that they will charge 150 pip. A term used in for currencies in which each pip is an 0.01% of a currency. In this case the USD/CAD is charge 1.5% seems too high.

I noticed some discussions regarding the currency conversion in Registered accounts when you trade in US markets.
Wash Trading is an illegal stock trading practice where an investor simultaneously buys and sells shares in a company through two different brokers.
Avoiding the currency conversion has nothing to do with Wash Trading.
Having said that, as far as I know TDW is the only broker that is able to avoid the currency conversion by putting the US funds in a US Money Market Fund. That procedure, while unique, has some disadvantages if you’re a frequent trader, since you’d have to wait for 3 days (settlement) to use the same funds to trade again.
We are a leader in the industry and we intend to stay that way. We’ll do our best to come up with something even better. For now, however, the US trades in an RRSP account will be followed by a currency conversion. The spread is significantly lower than the spread for a currency conversion in a standard account.
Regards,
Emil Vojkollari
Client Acquisitions Supervisor
Web: http://www.questrade.com
Phone: (416) 227-9876 ext.380
Toll Free: 1-888-783-7866 ext.380
Fax: (416) 227-0078
_____________________________________________________________________________
Questrade Inc. | 5650 Yonge Street, Suite 1700, Toronto, ON M2M 4G3

Trade Stocks for $4.95

I’m trying to find where I wrote that we have a cheaper Forex Spread!
It will help if you send me an e-mail with the name of the person that would have said that. As far as I know, the FX Spread in an RRSP account is lower than 0.9%. Maybe support was referring to the standard accounts.

Emil Vojkollari
Client Acquisitions Supervisor
Web: http://www.questrade.com
Phone: (416) 227-9876 ext.380
Toll Free: 1-888-783-7866 ext.380
Fax: (416) 227-0078
_____________________________________________________________________________
Questrade Inc. | 5650 Yonge Street, Suite 1700, Toronto, ON M2M 4G3

Trade Stocks for $4.95

Emil,

“…That procedure, while unique, has some disadvantages if you’re a frequent trader, since you’d have to wait for 3 days (settlement) to use the same funds to trade again.
…”

You do not have to wait for settlement rather you can use the fund at any time just like your CAD money within your RRSP account, but you have to call them to do wash trade for each US transaction.

I am pretty new to trading stocks.
I am also looking for a good canadian broker that will let me trade in the US markets.

If i’m looking to trade with stocks that have a market cap less than 500 million, (which is a small cap right?), will questrade be suitable for me?

I am not going to be trading too much at first, so i don’t want commissions to eat up my profits.

Also someone mentioned about ‘wash trades’…what is that?

Thanks
Great site, btw!

Goby, just b/c a company is under $500 million in market cap, it doesn’t mean that the stock price will be low.

There is a 1% rule that I follow, if the commissions in the trade are greater than 1% of the trade total, then you need to increase the trade amount. For example, if the commissions are $5/trade, then the min that you should trade is $500 worth.

For more info on wash trades, check out this thread:
http://www.milliondollarjourney.com/cibc-investors-edge-review.htm#comment-8086

Hey Goby,

Yes Questrade will let you trade all of those exchanges, however their exchange rates are prohibitive. If you’re looking at trading exclusively US based stocks, Interactive Brokers might be your best bet. They have crazy low forex (exchange) fees, and they only charge $1/200 US shares. Also, if you trade as often as you say you will, you won’t have to worry about the minimum $10USD in commissions / month. You’ll have to read my complete review on Interactive brokers in order to get a clear idea of what I’m talking about.

Also to clarify the 1% rule, if your commission is $5/trade, the minimum / trade is $500 not $5000.

Here is the link to the Interactive Brokers Review:
http://www.milliondollarjourney.com/interactive-brokers-review.htm

Thanks for all the help guys.

Emil, do you have an email address i can contact you?
Mine is gobyj@yahoo.com

Thanks again Frugal, and Emil.

wood, it’s too bad that you had a bad experience with Questrade. I’ve never funded an account with a personal cheque before, so I can’t relate. I always use the free EFT transfer from my bank. Let us know how your situation pans out.

Hi FrugalTrader,
I am a newbie to trading. Your post got me excited enough to open an account with Questrade. However, there were some very intrusive questions that were required for opening the account:

What is your annual income ? ( I am ok with this)
What are your liquid assets ?
What are your net fixed assets?

Ditto for spouse. Why do brokers need to know this? Is it legal for them to ask /store such private info? How safe is such info in their hands?

Would appreciate your thoughts on this. Thanks !
Manny
Toronto

Dear Manny,

I know that you requested the opinion of FrugalTrader regarding this, but as Questrade representative I felt obligated to give you an answer as well.

We ask the questions about your assets since the accounts that we open are margin accounts. You have the possibility of borrowing twice the amount of money that you deposit in your Questrade account.

We ask the questions about your spouse because there are certain people in this world that we cannot open accounts for. Furthermore, being an investment account, we need to know the members of the family unit that will be sharing (in the eyes of the law) the finances.

We have been in business since 1999 and the application has not changed since then. Thousands of clients have gone through the same questions. We are a member of the IDA and everything we do is strictly regulated. If the information would not be safe in our hands we would have been out of business long ago.

I hope this helps clarifying the application process.

Regards,

Emil Vojkollari
Client Acquisitions Supervisor
Web: http://www.questrade.com
Phone: (416) 227-9876 ext.380
Toll Free: 1-888-783-7866 ext.380
Fax: (416) 227-0078
_____________________________________________________________________________
Questrade Inc. | 5650 Yonge Street, Suite 1700, Toronto, ON M2M 4G3

Hi Manny,

I am glad to hear that you opened the account. Welcome to Questrade.

Please see link for interest rates:
http://www.questrade.com/join/interest_matrix.html

The lowest interest rate we pay is 2% considering the Canadian Rate is currently 4.5%.

Good luck trading,

Emil Vojkollari
Client Acquisitions Supervisor
Web: http://www.questrade.com
Phone: (416) 227-9876 ext.380
Toll Free: 1-888-783-7866 ext.380
Fax: (416) 227-0078
_____________________________________________________________________________
Questrade Inc. | 5650 Yonge Street, Suite 1700, Toronto, ON M2M 4G3

Trade Stocks for $4.95

Hi gobj,

We cannot open accounts for US residents and for people under 18 years old. It does not make a difference to Questrade what your income is.

Please contact me directly if you need help with the application.

Best,

Emil Vojkollari
Client Acquisitions Supervisor
Web: http://www.questrade.com
Phone: (416) 227-9876 ext.380
Toll Free: 1-888-783-7866 ext.380
Fax: (416) 227-0078
_____________________________________________________________________________
Questrade Inc. | 5650 Yonge Street, Suite 1700, Toronto, ON M2M 4G3

Trade Stocks for $4.95

Emil,

I just opened an account with Questrade last week.

As I was familiarizing myself with the trading platform I found that I had been set up on what appeared to be a different and more expensive platform than I had signed up for.

Luckily, there is a live chat function for help. Unfortunately, the individual I chatted with was unable to assist me and referred me to his manager that I subsequently had to call to rectify the problem.

The manager explained to me that it was too late to switch platforms and that I would be charged regardless, period. He said his records showed that I had chosen the more expensive platform. It didn’t seem to matter that I just opened the account and I alerted Questrade to the discrepancy immediately.

I am unimpressed by the way Questrade poorly treats new customers. Unfortunately, I found the manager somewhat condescending and patronizing.

Today, after a week with Questrade, I found out that the platform has been changed to the cheaper one that I originally wanted, yet I am still being charged for the more expensive platform for the entire month.

The manager did say that with discount brokers you get what you pay for… In my case, you pay for what you don’t get.

My advise to others: STAY AWAY FROM QUESTRADE!
There are other, better discount brokers out there.

Sincerely,

goldmember

Further to my previous post about the difficulty I had with Questrader. I was contacted this morning and the issue has been resolved.

My experience with the customer service at Questrade was extremely frustrating, and I was trying to open an account! The initial problem may have been caused by Canada Post, I’ll never know, but getting help from the staff at Questrade requires a lot of free time and the patience of a saint.

I’ve had a lot of website problems trying to sign up with Questrade. Random things would just not work (details below). This has left me with an over-all impression that their platform is poorly done and a general worry that it will fail at the worst possible time. So I’ve decided to go with a different broker that is more expensive but seems more trustworthy.

I spent many days trying to sign up with Questrade, as I was determined to get the cheap commissions, but Questrade’s website defeated me at every turn. For example:

(1) While typing in my phone number the website would try to “intelligently” help me by adding brackets, dashes and 0’s where it thought best, but it actually made it impossible for me to enter my correct phone number. Of course, the website would then complain that the number I entered was not valid.

(2) I would click “next” in the sign up form and the website would complain that I needed to fill in the field highlighted - but there is no field highlighted and every field I see is filled in.

(3) I would try to make a selection from a drop-down menu, but I couldn’t scroll down. You see, instead of using a standard plain-old HTML selection box, Questrade chose to make their own thing with Javascript, and it doesn’t work. So I couldn’t select the right options.

(4) I would try to load a page (e.g. the login page) and I’d get a totally blank screen.

(5) Many more.

These problems were experienced with every major web browser: Internet Explorer, Firefox, Opera and Safari. This was done over three computers running two operating systems (Linux and Mac OS X).

Note: Internet Explorer was run under Windows emulation.

I contacted Questrade. Emil was friendly and respectful inspite of the very angry tone of my email. I was told that their website only works on Windows.

Now, I am a Web Developer, and honestly I can’t imagine what you could do to make a website depend on the operating system. I couldn’t do that if I tried. Sure, you can make a website depend on Internet Explorer. Had they said that and I would have been upset but not surprised. But its not IE, it’s Windows. I do have IE available (after all, I need to test my websites on IE too) but that wasn’t enough.

Each browser had a different set of problems. Each browser had enough problems that at one point it became impossible to continue the sign-up process. In the end I did manage to sign up, by going through several different browsers for each step of the process. But by the time I was done I didn’t feel I could trust Questrade anymore.

To be clear: Yes, I /can/ get access to a Windows computer. My girlfriend’s computer has a Windows partition (though she doesn’t use it much). So I can get Windows (btw, I haven’t checked the claim that using Windows fixes the problems). The issue is that I have doubts about the technical competence of the people who design and run Questrade’s platform and I’m worried that something else might fail at the worst possible time.

Along those lines, has anyone tried the new QuestraderWEB Beta platform? The website says: “The only software requirement for QuestraderWEB Beta is a web browser that supports 128-bit encryption.” I understand this to mean that it is platform independent. Does anyone have experience with this, specifically on Mac OS X? What’s the official statement on that?

The automatic currency conversions in RRSP accounts is 0.5%. I’ve checked it several times. They are saying they will eliminate it alltogether now.

Private talks with them. Very soon apparently. Affiliate ID “value”

John,

You probably spoke to the wrong people. Try Andrew. He’s good at helping. Affiliate ID “value” Please enter this ID on the application before doing anything else on their site.

Folks,
My question(s)/concern(s) may have been previously answered in one form or another but I would like to make this specific.
I’m fairly new at trading and I’m looking for the best broker in terms of currency conversion as I will be trading only US stocks (I’m residing in Canada), and of course one that charges a cheaper rate. I also plan on trading in the Forex market.
I’ve heard of TD Ameritrade but not much has been mentioned about it on this site. Comments?

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Sharjeel

Sharjeel, if you’re trading often then IB would be your best bet in terms of cheap forex. I’ve never tried TD Ameritrade, but I would assume that brokerage is available to US residents only.

Sherjeel, it would really depend on your trading habits. If you trade often (>10 times / month), then IB would probably be the lowest cost. For a more detailed comparison of discount brokerages, check out my article:

Canadian Discount Brokerage Comparison

Sharjeel,

We will approve the application as soon as we receive the signed forms and the supporting documents. You may go ahead and fund the account via online bill payment if you’d like to speed up the process.

Good luck trading,

Emil Vojkollari
Client Acquisitions Supervisor
Web: http://www.questrade.com
Phone: (416) 227-9876 ext.380
Toll Free: 1-888-783-7866 ext.380
Fax: (416) 227-0078
_____________________________________________________________________________
Questrade Inc. | 5650 Yonge Street, Suite 1700, Toronto, ON M2M 4G3

Trade Stocks for $4.95
Ranked # 1 for both Fees and Customer Satisfaction - The Globe & Mail

Frugal Trader, I would like to sincerely thank you for sharing these valuable information with us. I used to trade with Ameritrade and now Td Waterhouse. I was disappointed with the fees but I was still making enough profit to keep me trading, but now that there are few alternatives, switching has become inevitable.
Emil, I am wondering what the Exchange and ECN fees are? (examples will be helpful)

I opened my account in May. I was referred by frugal trader and supposed to received 50 rebate after three months usage. I have contacted them in Sep., Oct., and recently. At the first two times, they told me I would receive the rebate in the end of the month. The last time the representative just told me to send him an email and ignored me totally.
I’m going to close my account.

Korsh,

Why in the world would you urge everyone to leave Questrade? Cyber Trader was a great platform. I hate it that’s no available anymore, but this has nothing to do with Questrade. Questrade was the only brokerage in Canada that gave you and me the possibility of using the Cyber Trader for 7-8 years. You should thank them. Please rationalize how is it Questrade’s fault that Charles Schwab took the platform off the market.

Let me preface this by stating I have nothing against QT personally , I am sure the people who work there are very nice and work very hard. I take issue with the poor decisions made on behalf of their customers in regards to the trading platforms. I have reviewed both Axis & Sterling, although Sterling is significantly better than Axis or QT Pro or whatever it is called..it simply does not stand up when tested against TWS from IB & the multiple user interfaces which can be attached to TWS. Not to mention the lower commissions & superior data feeds to world markets. To answer your question, it is of course not Questrade’s fault that Schwab took the platform off the market. I am of the belief that Questrade, instead of seizing a great opportunity to get input from their traders as to what they want, instead of turning this into a great marketing & new customer acquisition opportunity by providing an even superior platforms than CT, merely jumped at the least expensive licensing fee that was presented to them, which brings us to Axis and Sterling. In my opinion & many other fellow traders (both day & swing traders) this is not in the best interest of Questrade or their customers. IMO.

Woodwood, your request has been completed. You will be contacted in the next few days with details.

Korsh, I feel like I need to add a few more details to my previous post.

Questrade was founded to serve active traders and we’re not leaving you behind. We researched every offering available and the best white label solutions are unfortunately not available in Canada. It’s not a matter of Questrade not paying for a platform. The other solution is to build our own software, as you suggested, with ample input from active traders. I absolutely agree – but this is not possible to achieve in six months. We are working towards it and we will have a platform that’s compatible with Cyber Trader if not better.

Sincerely,

Emil Vojkollari
Client Acquisitions Supervisor
Web: http://www.questrade.com
Phone: (416) 227-9876 ext.380
Toll Free: 1-888-783-7866 ext.380
Fax: (416) 227-0078
_____________________________________________________________________________
Questrade Inc. | 5650 Yonge Street, Suite 1700, Toronto, ON M2M 4G3

Trade Stocks for $4.95
Ranked # 1 for both Fees and Customer Satisfaction - The Globe & Mail

I’m slightly confused here - sorry I’m a newbie and my account is not yet opened. I was under the impression that for a non-registered account, I could transfer some money from CAD into US funds and then trade US securities with the US funds. I have no desire to move the money back to Canadian for quite a while. During this time, will I be forced through exchanging currencies for each trade I make in US securities, or will I be trading only in USD? Perhaps that only applies to registered accounts, but it would be good to know.
Thanks to all for the helpful posts above.

Sorry - this question is answered on the website: “Manage the currency balance in your margin accounts. Canadian dollars are not exchanged to settle USD transactions and vice versa, except in the case of registered accounts, which need to be maintained in Canadian dollars. In situations where Canadian dollars are held in a margin account and a US security is held overnight, you are borrowing US dollars against your Canadian dollars. Interest is applied to the full US dollar value of shares held. “

Questrade Problem, December 2007

I’ve been having a problem with Questrade over the last two weeks and recently did a search for Questrade problems and found this site. I thought other people should be aware of the problem I’ve had and then they can make their own decision whether they want to use Questrade of continue to use Questrade.

There is limited space here, how can I add more?

ok, I been reading all this from beginning so maybe I could also sign up with them…

1. I have US dollar account with TD, Can I use it to transfer funds to Questrade using ETF? please simple answer

2. Do they offer free trades like Zecco (https://www.zecco.com/trading/freetrading.aspx?tab=CompareUs)

3. What other options available for US deposits… can I mail US money order?
Is it safe?

4. Suppose you have $4.95 plan, you trade & buy 5000 shares(in single trade… what happens… do I pay $4.95 for that trade or $9.95 for that trade or some crazy amount over that?
(example, saw some online traders charge $5/trade for 1000 shares & max upto $10)

Jas,

1- No
2- Very funny question….I wished. The answer is No. Zeko is a US firm.
3- What do you mean by “is it safe”?
4- The plan is $0.01/share. The $4.95 is a minimum.

The US market is quite different from the Canadian. Unfortunately Canadians cannot open accounts with US brokers. I’ve tried with no success.

Jas, if you want absolute answers you’ll have to contact their support staff directly. They have a pretty handy online chat tool during week days.

From what I know, they do not offer free trades like Zecco, no Canadian brokerage does. Also, they have an option of the $5 for 500 shares OR $10 for unlimited shares. You have the choice and you can switch between the commission plans from month to month. You’ll have to contact support to find out more about the USD EFT transfer.

Danel,

How does Questrade not work with a Mac? I’m on a mac and wanting to set up an account with Questrade, and so far…so good? Briefly tried out the WebTrader demo and also seems to be working…

Really would like to know if Questrade works or not with Macs. Would hate to set it up then have to close it because it doesn’t work…

Anyone else on a Mac with experience with Questrade?

Thanks,
Carson

(iMac Core Duo, Firefox 2.0.0.4 running FlashBlock and NoScript)

Hey CD, do you have trouble running questrade web trader with firefox? Perhaps it’s with firefox and linux combined? I use FF with a PC and it works fine.

Thanks for the tip Jas, specially the last one. I was just gonna do that!

I have been with Questrade since October 2007 and I would consider this brokerage choice one of my worst. The reasons being

1/ zero customer service- forget the phone number unless you want to wait in line for 3 hours or so.

2/ The internet support is pretty much useless. They can’t help you on anything major.

3/ They have a cheap system called penson online that gives the history of your account. Less I talk about this better. I can’t even figure out why I am paying interest or how much I owe as money borrowed on margins so that I can pay it off.

4/ I was told that there is no annual fee promptly on the phone but there was no information that if I chose web streaming account or something like that I would be charged $20 every month. I knew it after three moths after they took $60 out. My whole complaint is that there is no info or training to use their complex system and it works to their advantage because you are the looser. I guess customer service being non existent is for the same reason.

bj

Hey tom and bj, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I am gonna start up an account with them anyways just to see first hand.
Now Tom did you notice any other hidden fees like the ones that bj described? IE any inactivity fees thats not mentioned on their site? extra commissions?
and what are the rates for forex that you are paying?

.5% is for a registered account like RRSP right.
what about an unregistered?
So theres no fee for inactivity?

Hello Tom and BJ,

Could you please contact me directly. Let’s go over all your problems and solve them.

I can’t stress enough how important it is to separate frustration rising from complications associated with using a system that you have never used before, from real customer service problems.

In case of the latter, please provide me with as much information as possible about the incident.

All I can do is promise that the problem will be resolved and our service improved. You all have to help me with this. We are working towards the same goals: Trading efficiently and making money while doing so.

Please contact me at the number below.

Thank you,

Emil Vojkollari
Client Acquisitions Supervisor
Web: http://www.questrade.com
Phone: (416) 227-9876 ext.380
Toll Free: 1-888-783-7866 ext.380
Fax: (416) 227-0078
_____________________________________________________________________________
Questrade Inc. | 5650 Yonge Street, Suite 1700, Toronto, ON M2M 4G3

Trade Stocks for $4.95
Ranked # 1 for both Fees and Customer Satisfaction - The Globe & Mail

To Mr. Emil Vojkollari and to anyone interested in subscribing to Questrade,

The Questrade web-based (the former WebTrader and the new, beta QuestraderWEB) is a joke. I have lost money with your system. Let me share with you a REAL, BAD experience that happened to me:

On a Thursday night, right before midnight, I logged on my account and places a day limit buy order for 100 x MRU.A. After carefully double-checking the order, I have clicked “submit”. The order did NOT show in the “order status” section of the web page. Ok, I thought that maybe I was blind or something wrong with my browser happened/session expiration. I placed the same order the second time. Again, no effect. I tried to log out and log in again, hoping that the order(s) will be shown OR AT LEAST that I’d be able to try a third time. Surprisingly system no longer allowed me to log on!!! I tried with a 2nd account (my wife’s), again, no luck. Ok, after tries and retries, after approx. 10-15 minutes I was able to log on back. The 2 order attempts weren’t visible. Ok, I wanted to give it a one more try and this time it worked. I could see one order of 100 mru.a stocks placed in the queue. Ok, I said to myself - the first 2 attempts were discarded by the system (because otherwise I should have had the opportunity to see a trace of them in the status).

TO MY SURPRISE and MY SHOCK, after coming from work the next day in the evening, I say 3 orders of 100 stocks each being executed.
I spoke with numerous support agents and even a Manager, an investigation has been placed. After about 3 weeks of frustration (in this time I called them many many times) the manager (Mr. Robert was his name I think) called me back with the results of investigation, which are the following:

They have ADMITTED that their system/platform experienced a technical problem (right after midnight the system enters in a sort of special maintenance mode) BUT Questrade will not offer me a compensation for the loss incurred (I was asking that 2 of those 3 orders discarded) BECAUSE - and this is OUTRAGEOUS - I still have had the opportunity to look in the order status the next day in the morning!!!! How come? As customer, am I supposed to check in the system from minute to minute how the questrade platform behaves???
Right after the midnight, I was in fact logging into the system, for a second time and why - if his explanations/reasons are logical to you - why at that time no trace of my attempts could not be seen in the system.

I have clear proofs (screenshots) demostrating that your system had problems (and your developers were able to validate what I said during the investigation). But you refuse to compensate me for the loss (it is a loss because I was buying on margin and now instead of paying interest for only approx. $3000 I must pay for $9000).

Listen Mr. Emil Vojkollari, I was a fan of Questrade and you have ABSOLUTELY LET ME DOWN.
Until you solve this problem in favorable terms, I WILL ALWAYS warn everbody to stay away from Questrade. It’s not a normal way to treat the customers. Also, if I may give a suggestion further - your customer support is absolutely non-existent.

Regards,
Stefan

I was using WebTrader at that time, because I did not want to take any risks with the newer, beta platform (the new one as a matter of fact was supposed to become official starting with nov 1 2007 - at least according to the announcement that Questrade sent by snailmail; and they in fact are late with the project - hmm what kind of devel team do you have Questrade???).

My situation happened exactly on 11/16/2007 00:14:14.

It is clearly a situation of repudiation, their system was able to track the logs and confront with what I said and the manager admitted they were wrong.

Simply put, I had to pay with my own money…for being what? their beta-tester???

It’s absolutely outrageous. I will try to pay all that I owe to them in the margin acct and RUN as fast as I can.

Mr. Emil Vojkollari, can you hear me?

[to you all, in the meantime, please do not place any out of market order in the midnights, you can never be sure of what will happen :) ]

Hmmmm… to place three orders one after another, without receiving any feedback from the system… not the smartest thing to do, to say the least.

If you place an order and don’t get a confirmation, the status of the order is *unknown*. You cannot simply assume that the order was lost or discarded. The only safe thing to do is call the customer support line and ASK. Office closed for the day? Wait until morning!! Placing an order is not a matter of life and death.

Their system may be a total POS for all I know. You still have to act responsibly.

How many rrsp accounts can a person hold in different places? Would it make since to switch to Quest Trade after building up 25000 with index mutual funds with say td efunds, or should or can it be a separate account? 25,000 the tipping point you said it makes sense to switch to ETFs? is there a big fee for switching rsps from one institution to another? Can a person have more than one account and have them work in tandem, or is spreading things too thin in a number of places cutting down on profits? Still trying to make sense of things for future reference…